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Shofar Campus Christian Cult Part 2

05/29/07

Shofar Campus Christian Cult Part 2

06:56:57 pm, Categories: Theory and Theosophical, Rant and Rave, Kultcha, 1793 words

When I wrote up my last piece on the Shofar Christan cult I never perceived that it would receive as much attention as it has. I received numerous emails in my inbox from many different people from many different walks of life with more information on this cult.

Firstly, I wish to address the use of the word 'cult' in this article and in my previous one. Wikipedia defines the definition of the word cult, as the following:

"In religion and sociology, a cult is a term designating a cohesive group of people (generally, but not exclusively a relatively small and recently founded religious movement[1]) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream."

By the above accepted definition of the word cult, I believe it is safe to refer to this 'cohesive' Stellenbosch Christian group going by the name of Shofar Christian Church as a cult.

To ratify my above on conclusion, lets look at the second part of that definition, "devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream.". Off the top of my head I can think of two points that would qualify that point:

1) Their Creationist stance on evolution and naive belief that the Theory of Evolution is false is outside of mainstream beliefs. For instance it is almost completely accepted in the real science world (outside of a few nutters), and is even accepted by the Vatican and the Catholic Church (the largest organization of the Christian faith)

2) Preaching in pubs and clubs. I know this one is pretty trivial, but darn Shofar people..., "Have you NO clue?" I have a suggestion to those of you who get haunted by these strange people when you are looking for a little R&R. Two words. Water balloons.

Now, I suppose Shofar Christian Church could try do to me what they did to jeeva.net, and send a letter from a lawyer complaining about 'defamation of business', but if they do that.. and if they are a business... What happens to all those tax breaks they get for being a "Church"?

Now that I have got the word cult of the way I want to move onto information more relevant to Shofar Christian Church. One of the more interesting emails I got was from Al Lovejoy, the author of the book Acid Alex (I will supply a link to where you can purchase this brilliant piece of work in my linkblog). My girlfriend was the one who heard excellent reviews about this book a couple of months ago and purchased a copy for us to read.

The book Acid Alex is a wonderfully honest look at certain South African cultures during some very difficult times in South Africa. The author of the book is frank and honest, and pretty much lays his story out in such a way that leaves you humbled.

When I read the book I remember reading about a possibly dangerous cult in South Africa and about some of the more darker aspects of the 7th Day Adventists (who are still waiting ;)), and other dubious religious people Al Lovejoy came across.

I received an email from Al Lovejoy pointing me to have a look at his book in reference to my last article on Shofar Christian Church. Then it all clicked. The book that I had read several months before was linked in a way to this cult and a whole lot more became clear.

First, lets look at a little at the history regarding Shofar Christian Church and how it came to be. A businessman by the name of Fred May and his wife Lucille May started the campus cult in 1992 in Stellenbosch (South Africa).

A little bit about Mr Fred May. Fred May has never been ordained through an established church, Fred May has no degree in theology and his highest level of tertiary education is a B.A. Fred May appears to use American Creationist ("praise the lord and pass the loot Bible Belt heroes") Rhema style preaching.

Mr Fred May has a deep contempt of the Roman Catholic Church as well as the NG Kerk and regularly has a go at them from his pulpit.

Fred May is almost like South Africa's own Ted Haggard in the hypocrisy of his belief and teachings... however there is currently no evidence that he has taken Crystal Meths or that he is hiring a male prostitute.

Al Lovejoy had the following to say about Fred May and his organization,

"These are the voices of very, very angry and defensive - so called "Charismatic Christians" who belong to a campus cult called Shofar here in Stellenbosch. The other is "His People" who now call themselves "Every Nation". I called out their founder leader, a self appointed man named Fred May through Die Matie, the University of Stellenbosch's newspaper - on the straight fact that he and his new associates in Rhema finance their businesses by means of committing Biblical fraud and extortion - thus committing heresy and financial theft. Fred May is the worst of them because he isn't just illegally stripping working people of 10% of their monthly earnings - he's stripping the students of 10% of their study loans, inheritances, bursaries, scholarships, parent's salaries, waitressing tips and pocket money…in other words - their tertiary education funds."

A Tithe is not a Christian law or required in Christianity, but rather old Jewish Mosaic Law. Biblical teachings appear to indicate that although tithing was practised extensively in the Old Testament it was never practised nor taught within the first-century Church. Instead the New Testament scriptures seem to teach the concept of "freewill offerings" as a means of supporting the church (I Corinthians 16:2 and II Corinthians 9:7).

In fact the earliest groups sold everything they had and held it in common to be used for the furtherance of the Gospel (Acts 2:44-47). Such practices are testified to in the Acts of the Apostles. Also in Acts one can find a narrative relating to a man and wife who promised to sell a piece of property and donate it to the Church. Instead they only brought part of the selling price before the Lord and were struck dead for lying to a prophet of God, one of the Apostles.

These were clear examples that the first-century Church did not establish nor insist on a 10% (or tithe) rule but instead emphasized freewill giving. Clearly the Church believed in making offerings of money or goods to God dependent upon the conscience of its members.

Denominations and sects view tithing differently. As tithing was only a requirement found in the Old Testament, some consider it to be a practice that has no place in modern Christianity.

However, that does not stop the modern pulpit pushers from fleecing their gullible flock for as much money as they can.

Someone wrote into the Sunday Times with the following letter regarding the off spin sequel cult called, "Every Nation";

"I have been a faithful member of Every Nation Stellenbosch Church where the accused Fred Van Der Vyfer also attends. Coming from a very poor background I still had to commit to paying monthly tithes with my student loan and weekly offerings. I was told to commit my time to disciple students but when I needed someone no-one was there for me. The church expected me to be in meetings even when my studies and family life were not going too well. The pastors only made time for the wealthy students and never had time for the poorer students. They invite the wealthy students to their homes for lunches and supper but the poor students often don’t even have enough money for food. The pastors also make contact with the parents of the wealthy students and visit their homes but the poor students’ parents are never contacted.

I see this church as merely exploiting the poor to make a name for itself. They want to show they have all kinds of people in the church but it’s not real. They don’t show any compassion towards the poor. They don’t have any black or coloured pastor in Stellenbosch, and only white pastors preach who can relate to the white students. Whites go into the full-time ministry and get paid by the church. They don’t work but disciple the wealthy students on Stellenbosch campus.

Paul Daniel was the founder of His People (now Every Nation) and he fell into sexual immorality with many females in the church. The church has a history of oppressing the poor and rejecting them when they need help. The church has expanded to Somerset West where they serve the wealthy people and no poor people. They don’t have any projects in the poor areas like Kayamandi or Cloetesville to give food, clothes with the money as they believe it’s about God and themselves. They are not committed to the poor. The poor students in the church tithe but the money is not used to help any poor community."

Since we are on the topic of money, lets have a look at the testimony of Al Lovejoy and his book Acid Alex. Some of you may be thinking that he is just bad mouthing Shofar Christian Church and Every Nation for his own personal financial gains from the sale of his book. To set the story straight I am quoting directly from Al Lovejoy himself,

"On the 28 February 2007 I donated 100% of the current and future proceeds from the sale of Acid Alex, including international distribution rights and the movie rights (less 15% agent's fees) to an NGO children's foundation that is mostly my brainchild but in reality will eventually become a more lucid entity via the efforts of a number of people both here and internationally."

I can tell you right now Al Lovejoy is doing more good for the people of this world than the Mr Fred May. I wonder if Fred May donates a 100% of his profits to charities? Nope, he does not give 100% of his profits to children charities..his "church" and his "God" need the money. Of course.

There is a real lot of information coming out about these dangerous cults that masquerade as 'Christianity', if you are one of your loved ones have fallen victim to one of these Christian Cults, please leave a comment or email pb@pickledbushman.com with the information so your story can be shared.

Source information:
- http://thechiz.co.za/archive/2006/10/17/The-real-deal-with-al-lovejoy.aspx
- http://www.acidalex.com
- http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Lifestyle/Article.aspx?id=456264
- http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=466838
- Previous Shofar article by pickledbushman

UPDATE EDIT: http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/when-ignorance-is-called-god/#comment-2237

68 comments

Comments:

Comment from: psichron [Visitor]

I attended one Shofar "service" to see whether all these claims about it being a "cult" is true. Unfortunately, the service turned out to be nothing more than an evolution-bashing opportunity by a man with an obvious lack of education on the subject. I saw some of my physics lecturers in the audience, shaking their heads and smirking most of the time.

Is Shofar a cult? I don't know, but it is not a Christian church and it does more harm than good. It is a business that preys on students' money by delivering a "spiritual high". Kudos to their excellent marketing campaigns, I think all real churches could learn much from them.

05/30/07 @ 13:51

Comment from: Carl Kirstein [Visitor]

I know it sounds strange to everybody that
a church may attack evolution, but this is
not as uninformed as it may seem sometimes.

I do not know who the person speaking was,
or what he said. But I do know this: I was
an ardent defendent of evolution until
someone challenged me one day to prove
that evolution is science.

Now whereas evolution has a lot of good
science involved, it is not based upon
science.

If you apply the requirements for something
to be classified under science, it has to
adhere to the scientific method established
by Isaac Newton (even Karl Popper agrees).
The fundamental assumptions of evolution
1. nothing suddenly becomes something
2. order increases randomly
3. information increases randomly and
4. life started by itself,
has not been proven. On the contrary all
our observations seem to indicate the
contrary.

It is therefore not unreasonable to put the
assumptions of evolution on a par with the
assumptions of creation. Neither is
disprovable, which puts it out of the realm
of science.

just my two cents

05/30/07 @ 15:28

Comment from: pb [Member]

Im sorry Carl, but your deceptive post has prompted me to reply. I really wish uninformed people would break free of their ignorance. :(

Lets go through your post carefully.

I know it sounds strange to everybody that
a church may attack evolution, but this is
not as uninformed as it may seem sometimes.

Oh yes it is, as I will show you later

Now whereas evolution has a lot of good
science involved, it is not based upon
science.

Of course it is. Unless you want to tell all those genome specialists who have been working with successful results that their job is actually a fallacy. Do you know how simple your comment is?

If you apply the requirements for something
to be classified under science, it has to
adhere to the scientific method established
by Isaac Newton (even Karl Popper agrees).
The fundamental assumptions of evolution
1. nothing suddenly becomes something

Rubbish. Please show me what the above comment has to do with evolution? evolution is the change in a population's inherited traits from generation to generation. It is about the study of the diversity in life and not the origins of life which is a hypothesis known as abiogenisis. Your comment is completely false.

2. order increases randomly

I think here you are talking about mutation. One mechanic in the theory of evolution. Mutations and other random changes in these genes can produce new or altered traits, resulting in heritable differences (genetic variation) between organisms. However, not all is random. You also have not taken into account genetic drift and other such evolutionary mechanics. Could you show me a peer reviewed professional article where you got this little gem about evolution from?

3. information increases randomly and

Ne? Okay you are going to have to tell me where you got this one from, and be more specific.

4. life started by itself,

Actually as pointed out earlier. Evolution has sweet nothing to do with the origin of life. Please stop repeating such obvious lies and deception.

has not been proven. On the contrary all
our observations seem to indicate the
contrary.

While I am not here to debate the origins of life as I have my own theory, I would love to know your peer reviewed source for "observations seem to indicate the contrary"

As you may have noticed, just about everything you said was false or misleading, please forgive me for having trust issues with you.

05/30/07 @ 16:25

Comment from: Ian Johnston [Visitor]

We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.

Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).

The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).

The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.

The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). And no human fossils have ever been found except in the most superficial layers of the earth (e.g., battlefields, graveyards, flood deposits, and so on). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).

Well, if we put these three points together, the rational case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation and all known scientific processes as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.

To make the claim for the scientific truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance.

05/30/07 @ 16:44

Comment from: Lennon [Visitor]

Concerning tithing:

You state that "A Tithe is not a Christian law or required in Christianity, but rather old Jewish Mosaic Law. Biblical teachings appear to indicate that although tithing was practised extensively in the Old Testament it was never practised nor taught within the first-century Church."

With reference to the above, i quote the following New Testament scripture (spoken by Jesus):

Matt 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former"

If that isn't clear proof that tithing is still applicable in the New Testament (i.e until today), then I don't know what is!

05/30/07 @ 22:55

Comment from: William Bernton [Visitor]

As per wiki:

According to Catholics, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Cor 9:13)), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers.

In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would ensure the proper and permanent support of the clergy.

Many Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) support their churches and pastors with monetary contributions of one sort or another. Frequently these monetary contributions are called tithes whether or not they actually represent ten-percent of anything. Some claim[citation needed] that as tithing was an ingrained Jewish custom by the time of Jesus, no specific command to tithe per se is found in the New Testament. However, this view overlooks the fact that Israel's tithes were of an agricultural nature, not financial.[1] References to tithing in the New Testament can be found in Matthew, Luke, and the book of Hebrews.

For Catholics, the payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience, rather than any direct command by Jesus Christ.

Some Protestant denominations cite Matthew 23:23 as support for tithing.

Away with you, you pettifogging Pharisee lawyers! You give to God a tenth of herbs, like mint, dill, and cumin, but the important duties of the Law -- judgement, mercy, honesty -- you have neglected. Yet these you ought to have performed, without neglecting the others.
(Albright & Mann, Matthew, Anchor Bible, Vol. 26 (1971))

and its parallel Luke 11:42

Woe to you, Pharisees! You tithe mint and rue and every edible herb but disregard justice and the love of God. These were rather the things one should practice, without neglecting the others.
(Fitzmyer, Luke, Anchor Bible, Vol.l, 28A (1985))

Because of Jesus' specific mention of the tithe in this passage, those who support the tithe believe that he gave his endorsement to the practice of tithing in general. Some scholars disagree, however, pointing out that Jesus was simply obeying Mosaic law as an obedient Jew.

In recent years, tithing has been taught in Christian circles as a form of "stewardship" that God requires of Christians. The primary argument is that God has never formally "abolished" the tithe, and thus Christians should pay the tithe (usually calculated at 10 percent of all gross income from all sources), although at the Council at Jerusalem the Apostles did not include it in the letter to the Gentile believers (Acts 15:29). The tithe is usually given to the local congregation, though some teach that a part of the tithe can go to other Christian ministries, so long as total giving is at least 10 percent. Some holding to prosperity theology doctrines go even further, teaching that God will bless those who tithe and curse those who do not.

Some scholars cite that since the account of Abram giving tithe to the high priest occurred before the law was given to Moses, the tithe does not fit into Mosaic Law and therefore is relevant today. That interpretation, however, is suspect since Abram also practised circumcision before the Mosaic law came into being, but that practice has itself been de-emphasized in the New Testament church. It is therefore a much better interpretation, both similar to circumcision and the observation of the Sabbath, that the practise of tithing (that is compulsory giving of 10% of ones income) is no longer applicable to the New Testament church. Instead church members are encouraged "to give as the Lord has prospered (them)” [I Corinthians 16:2], and "every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” [II Corinthians 9:7].

Opponents of tithing argue that the only Biblical references to the tithe occurred (or referenced events that occurred) during the period of Mosaic Law, applicable only to Jews. They further argue that Jesus taught He came to "fulfill" the Law, which they believe occurred at His crucifixion, and therefore Christians are no longer obligated to pay a minimum amount, but should give only as God specifically directs them to do (which may be more or less than 10 percent). Further, opponents hold that the "blessing/cursing" teachings used in prosperity theology would result in God being able to be "bribed" or acting as an "extortionist".

Proponents argue that one can not throw out the Law in the name of "fulfillment" because that also would cause the argument that Christians are no longer obligated to live a holy lifestyle according to the ten commandments, which scholars agree is not the intention of Jesus' teachings that He came to "fulfill" the Law.

There has also been much controversy with the introduction of "membership covenants" in many evangelical churches in North America, spearheaded by many mega-churches. These covenants, such as those introduced at the Willow Creek and Saddleback mega-churches, require giving 10% to that church as a condition of membership. Prospective members must sign off on a contract and are interviewed regarding their lifestyle, including tithing.

Proponents say that these covenants are a form of accountability, and in any event have the right to set their own membership criteria. Opponents say these covenants are a form of financial "extortion".

God does not need your money, Gods creation, its people need your help! Do not give a tithe to the Church`s, rather give it to people who really need the money!

05/30/07 @ 23:28

Comment from: Jeeva [Visitor]

Can't wait for shofarians to burn in hell! mr wiz, you must start a donation fund, where we can get some money to print anti-shower flyers and hand them out in stellenbosch.

BURN SUCKERS

05/31/07 @ 00:35

Comment from: danie le roux [Visitor]

Here is more comments rearding the EVERY NATION AND SHOFAR CULTS IN STELLENBOSCH.

http://prometheusongebonde.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/when-ignorance-is-called-god/#comment-2237

05/31/07 @ 08:48

Comment from: psichron [Visitor]

If you want to know more about shofar's philosophy, watch the movie "Jesus Camp".

Just to clear something up, I don't even fully believe in evolution,but the person speaking at the shofar "service" was an obvious political/sensationalist speaker spouting blatant bullcrap (receiving giggles from prominent physicists and some of my friends) as opposed to somebody with actual knowledge on the subject. It saddens me that the entire shofar audience was so blinded by anti-evolution and science bias that they entirely missed this fact. This pretty much says it all... A Shofarian once told me carbon daating relies on the speed of light being constant, and even Einstein said that this is not so. Wrong.

How can they expect to have credibility as a Christian church with leaders that simply attend some random course to become "ministers" as opposed to studying structured theology/ancient languages/philosophy?

Discussion on science and religion does not belong in the same house. Show me a person that is more concerned about evolution than his relationship with his fellow man, I show you a person with no god but his own lies.

05/31/07 @ 10:52

Comment from: Etienne [Visitor]

Hi pb

You wrote: "Of course it is. Unless you want to tell all those genome specialists who have been working with successful results that their job is actually a fallacy."

Surely you're not suggesting that the theory of evolution should not be challenged in order to not hurt the feelings of scientist?

100s of years ago the top scientists of the time believed that the earth was covered in a thich "blanket" and that the sun and the stars were lights that were "woven" into this blanket. A lot of these scientists devoted their whole professional lives to this theory, which in the end turned out to be a "fallacy". If, however, their theory wasn't challenged in order to not insult them, humankind would still not have gone into space today.

I believe all scientific theories should remain open to scrutiny. If the theory is sound, it will withstand the scutiny.

06/01/07 @ 12:29

Comment from: pb [Member]

Hey

Thanks for responding,

Surely you're not suggesting that the theory of evolution should not be challenged in order to not hurt the feelings of scientist?

No I did not suggest that at all. The theory of evolution that describes the process of evolution should be looked at carefully all the time and updated or changed as we know more. If there is a single bit of proof... say a mammal fossil in rock formed during 1 billion years ago that could prove it wrong, it should be replaced by a better theory. Currently there is none.

100s of years ago the top scientists of the time believed that the earth was covered in a thich "blanket" and that the sun and the stars were lights that were "woven" into this blanket. A lot of these scientists devoted their whole professional lives to this theory, which in the end turned out to be a "fallacy". If, however, their theory wasn't challenged in order to not insult them, humankind would still not have gone into space today.

You are not comparing things fairly. There is not a single biologist out there who would not like to come up with a better theory. Its a road to a Nobel Prize. However we have billions of pieces of evidence to confirm evolution, we have predictable testable results we can confirm over and over again. The theory of evolution is constantly being challenged and updated as we learn more. So far none of the real evidence contradicts it. Also, we are not looking at "hundreds" of scientists here. We are looking a hundreds of thousands of scientists. I think there are "hundreds" that deny the theory of evolution.

I believe all scientific theories should remain open to scrutiny. If the theory is sound, it will withstand the scutiny.

I completely concur with you on this point. The theory of evolution remains completely open for scrutiny, and as of yet no one has been able to best is soundness. :)

I have a blog post where you can try prove evolution false if you wish to debate this matter further, but right now I feel it may derail the current conversation which is more specifically Shofar. ( http://www.pickledbushman.com/index.php/2007/05/31/proove_evolution_false_and_win_a_nobel_p )

06/01/07 @ 12:42

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

Let me just first state I consider myself a conservative christian. I have been to Shofar services but stopped going because I don't feel at home there.

But I find the kind of hate-mongering speech found on this blog and the blog posts profoundly disturbing.

First of all quoting people and facts out of context and using questionable resources along with known facts to prove points is indicative of the very kind of brainwashing you oppose. For example, using the Catholic church to compare with Shofar, and calling them "the biggest christian church" is misleading. The NG church and most other churches in SA do not at all belong to the same denomination as the Catholic church.

So Fred May is not ordained an established church. If you are comparing the early first century church with regards you can do the same with pastors and ministers. I can assure you that none of the leaders needed to be ordained by an official church body. I certainly do not agree with everything Fred May has to say. But I have a deep respect for his knowledge of the bible and his ability to connect relevant passages in intellectually challenging sermons, a skill/gift sadly lacking in many other churches I have attended.

An example of how this argument is skewed is this incredible focus on the evolution/creationism debate. In all the contact I have had with Shofar church members (I lived in a house with a couple for 2 years) and the few times I have attended this church this was only referenced in passing once or twice. This article seems to suggest that this is all Shofar people talk about.

Another example of the inflamatory nature of this email is the mention of Fred van der Vyver being a member of His people church. To start with Fred has not been convicted, and the case against him seem to be severly flawed. Secondly it is ridiculous to attempt to judge a church on any of its members. A church is supposed to be a place where anyone is welcome. Now you are trying to make this of as a bad thing? And added to all this Fred is in His People, not Shofar, so why is this even in the article?

To close with, I disagree with some beliefs that Shofar has. But I have also met some amazing, open-minded life-filled people who are extremely happy in Shofar. Shofarians seem to involve their religion and church in every aspect of their lives. I think this is what makes people extremely uncomfortable, not so much that they think others are falling for what they believe is a sham, but more because secretly they feel afraid that they are missing out on something that can inspire people change their lives so completely.

Of course this is all my opinion. Anyone may differ from me - I might think you are wrong, but I promise, I won’t start blogging about how misinformed and dangerous you are and attempt to ridicule you in front of a wider audience.

06/01/07 @ 12:44

Comment from: pb [Member]

Luckily we have freedom's in the world. You have one opinion and one side of the story, I have another. I have to accept that the Shofar people have a go at evolution, then you have to accept when I complain about them having a go at evolution. I also only really used evolution in this post to qualify them as a cult... those where "off the top of my head", should you wish I will devote many more hours to getting you a complete list.

Freedom of speech works both ways mate.

PS. You are more than welcome to have a go at me, but when you do, try make sure its something zingy. Be creative :)

06/01/07 @ 12:49

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

Yes I can see the things in your post were "off the top of your head"- they were opinionated and ill-informed rants. Religion is such a sensitive topic that I think its just decent behaviour to go about discussing these issues in a non-aggressive way, whether you’re talking about Muslims, Shofarites or New-agers.

But please, feel free to quote freedom of speech at me. (When did I ever question your rights?) The Son newspaper also has freedom of speech. I think you fall in about the same bracket.

06/01/07 @ 15:00

Comment from: pb [Member]

And you sir, fall into the inherently melodramatic. I have an issue, and I will continue to give me opinion about it. If you do not like my point of view that's really tough.

I could have a serious go at how really STUPID I believe some of your beliefs are but I wont. If you dont like what I write you know where the little close button is.

If what I write offends you well then just understand what you believe in offends me. Deal with it, I have to put up with constant religious based lies from people like you.

06/01/07 @ 15:29

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

I am really sorry that we have fallen to insults. I am in a large part responsible for that, my first post was inflammatory.

And this is your blog, you are right, I should just close it if I feel offended.

By all means write about "religous lies" as you experience it (of course not that you need my permission or anything). I just appeal to you to do so in a sensitive and objective way.

06/01/07 @ 15:37

Comment from: koos [Visitor]

I don't think the seriousness of the
article should be mistaken as attacking
the church.The guy was oppressed in Every
Nation and it is not a good testimony at
all.The guy was rejected but others
were accepted.He is stating that the
church is not interested in poor people.
The church is only interested in the
wealthy.Since you know so much about
Every nations members why does the article say they have no black pastors.Whats with
that?White pastors looking after the white
sheep.It has also been noted that the
the church is taking credit for the blacks who are
doing community service for the university are u
and cliam the projects uder their name.
It is not EN projects but the members of EN
are involved in it.
EN shows no compassion for the poor.
What church that believes and fears God
does such hypocritical things.

Paul Daniel was the founder who fell into
sexual immorality with members of the
church.What does that say about the church?
Are females safe in EN?

06/04/07 @ 10:26

Comment from: bennie [Visitor]

Changing a name of the church doesn't mean
anything.Has the sin been dealt with?
I read in prometheusunbound
that this immorality thing seem to
be prevalent in Every nation.
Maureen Hinrichsen the pastor has a
child born out of wedlock.It is apparently
a girl and not Nils Hinrichsens child.
So what else is creeping in Every nation?

06/04/07 @ 10:48

Comment from: nick [Visitor]

Whats with all the cells in EN?
Aren't you saved once by grace and
continue to walk in faith.Many of the
students have to attend DC,OC,Pastors cell.
It seem sthat the control agent just
hasn't stopped its work in EN!
The church is using the cells to
get very deeply into the lives of
people to gain power over them.

Gods word has the final authority in
the lives of christians, no man can take
the place of the holy spirit.If people
are getting into so many meetings
when do they get time to really go and
fix things?
Do they need to be indoctrinated about
every area in life.The bible is a practical guide guide to humanity's issues.It does not lead to
people dependence but Godly dependence.

Having read the article I believe it is
extremely dangerous what these churches
are doing.Innocent people are attending
the churches and they get illtreated.
In Gods eyes it is a serious offense.
The poor is very close to the heart
of the Lord,he saves them from evil
oppresses in the world.The father
heart is broken when such things happen
to his children.

06/04/07 @ 14:14

Comment from: fanus [Visitor]

I've noticed that in certain areas in the
country there are still his people churches.
So now what is the difference between EN
and his people?They are divided within
their own church.

The church is very
evangelical but neglects the basics
that is to love your neighbour as self.
The church is built on performance
and titles and fame are the goal after
salvation.You must stand out and be seen as
a leader of some sort!

Maureen was anointed as pastor by Paul
Daniel.

Gods oil does not bring in any earthly
desires with it.You serve one master
not multiple,you don't need to show
how humble you are by submitting
to everyone called leader.

06/04/07 @ 16:32

Comment from: henk [Visitor]

They announced in church on 3June '07
that Phillip Pretorius is
starting a new church soon in Pretoria.
There is a hispeople church so he is
starting an Every nation church in PTA.
Thats how it goes no-one knows what they
really are.

There is something behimnd their evangelism.
Its not pure evangelism but
evangelism with a deceitful mission!!
Therefore all the churchplants and
various churchnames...

It has nothing to do with God but all about
their fame!

06/05/07 @ 08:36

Comment from: john [Visitor]

Henk,

All I can say is God is cleansing
Stellenbosch.Phiilip Pretorius has never
been good news at all.He is running with
his own vision for AFRIKANERS AND
AFRIKANER KERKE!
Let him go in peace!

06/05/07 @ 10:31

Comment from: CLIVE [Visitor]

EEN VAN PHILLIP SE SEUNS IN DIE GELOOF
HET 'N AFRIKAANSE GOSPEL DVD GEMAAK.
ALLE AFRIKANERS MOET BEKEER DEUR DIT.
HY IS CORNEL DRIESSEN EN DUS TE KOOP BY
WINKELS ORAL IN SA.

DAAR IS HOOP VIR DIE AFRIKANERS!
GOD GEE HOOP!WORD "LEWENDIG" MET
PHILLIP EN CORNEL DRIESSEN!

06/05/07 @ 14:17

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

This is for Lennon who, while trying to be a Bible teacher skipped something called exegesis, which real theologians have to master. You used this passage in Matthew to justify the doctrine of Christian cash tithing:

Matt 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former"

Son, who is Jesus speaking to in this passage? "Teachers of the law an pharisees" - Now from where I am standing that does not sound like this passage was addressed to his disciples, does it?

Secondly, what was this tithe - "spices—mint, dill and cummin", which definitely does not sound like an internet transfer into the ministry's ABSA account.

I don't think you even know what you have been robbed of - so I'm going to give you a short lecture on the subject.

Abraham never tithed of his own personal property or livestock. He tithed the spoils of war and he wouldn’t touch any of it himself.
Jacob wouldn’t tithe until God blessed him first and that tithe went to the poor.
Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today.
Only food products from the land (not sea) were titheable.
Money was never a titheable commodity.
Christian converts were never asked to tithe anything to the Church.

The way I understand the Bible, beginning with the Old Testament:

As a Jew, you, your family and household had to travel to Jerusalem annually with a tenth of your harvest and new livestock (actually livestock was only every three years) - and you handed it all over to the priests as tithes and offerings. Either that or you went and bought animals and produce in Jerusalem itself and then handed them over. Whatever. They would select the choicest animals and slaughter enough to hold a ritual holy feast. The living surplus and produce was then collected into paddocks and granaries to support the priests and widows, orphans and dispossessed of the nation. The religious understanding being that partaking of this sacred feast brought with it the annual forgiveness of God.

Tithing was still practised in the New Testament early church, except it had been taken out of the Temple as part of the Mosaic Law - by Christ Himself, and subsequently tithes and offerings became celebrated as The Lord's Supper. And no Levite priest was needed to minister at these selfsame sacred meals because all Christian believers had become sanctified priests and their very bodies temples, through the blood spilled during Christ’s execution, therefore, they extended the forgiveness of God to each other and not only annually - it became shared and extended in every holy meal that the church was commanded by Christ to gather for...and the responsibility for supporting the orphans, widows and the dispossessed in the community of believers – came with partaking of the Lord’s Supper. The early church did collect finances and property but it was used to support these orphans and widows.

A goldfish bowl pyramid scam has nothing to do with this. So Lennon, get into a proper theological college and learn things like ontology, epistemology, eschatology, hermeneutics, exegesis and such - it will equip you beyond the limitations of men who use only their very limited imaginations. If you want, my next short lecture will be on WHY Moses enforced tithing in Israel.

The Bible warns of wanting to be a teacher without knowlege - because you lead people astray and HURT them.

06/10/07 @ 23:23

Comment from: Carl Kirstein [Visitor]

Pb, have a look at the Forums on
http://www.thought.co.za
to see the sources of my arguments as well as more detailed discussions (we are made of stars; same sex marriages; reasons for getting out of bed). I have spoken to physicists and geologists about their science. I think you'll find the discussions stimulating (if you have enough time), but to repeat everything here will be too time consuming.

I think however you do not quite get the whole discussion regarding evolution. Shofar does not attack macro-evolution (aka speciation). They believe that God created original pairs of animals from where they "specialised" into the various forms we see today. One example will be the dog. They believe there was originally one dog pair (Canus) that speciated into jackals, foxes, dogs, wolves and dingoes we see today. You'll note however that all of them are still from the same family (Canus).

The evolutionary theory however says that fish became amphibians, became reptiles, became mammals and birds. This is called micro-evolution. And this requires new information to be randomly generated.

Furthermore the evolutionary viewpoint claims that God does not exist, therefore time and space was initiated by a random quantum fluctuation and progressed further by random punctuations. Along the way life "happened" somehow and so we see what we see today.

Whether you agree with that or not, that is essentially what evolution is about. And that is what Shofar is addressing.

I think this whole forum so far is filled with very many ignorant remarks and opinions. In our enlightened times it is quite *funny* how people are still afraid of what they do not know and then bad mouth it. The sunday times is not the authority of truth and is known to be biased in their reviews and interviews (as is ANY newspaper). I would rather ask of anybody to have an objective look at any society or establishement before making an opinion based upon other opinions of people who have heard it from a friend of a friend from a collegues' mothers' hairstylist (and who know where THAT information came from!?

06/12/07 @ 07:45

Comment from: pb [Member]

Morning Karl,

I almost got excited about your post, but then I realised how wrong it was :( Let me show you...

Shofar does not attack macro-evolution (aka speciation).

Macro-evolution is not a real scientific phrase and definitely does not refer to the single mechanic (of many) of evolution known as specification (basically the opposite of extinction)

They believe that God created original pairs of animals from where they "specialised" into the various forms we see today.

Well mate, that's just wrong. Unfortunately we go way further back than that

The evolutionary theory however says that fish became amphibians, became reptiles, became mammals and birds. This is called micro-evolution. And this requires new information to be randomly generated.

No its not and no it isn't. First off, there is only one mechanic that relies on semi random information being generated. This is called mutation and the most common evidence you can see for bad mutations we call cancer.

Furthermore the evolutionary viewpoint claims that God does not exist,

Absolute horse manure mate. I believe in God and Evolution.

therefore time and space was initiated by a random quantum fluctuation and progressed further by random punctuations.

All which has nothing to do with evolution. Quantum mechanics is not covered in genome biology though. Thought you might wanna know about that.... Also, evolution has nothing to do with either time or space other than merely taking up both space and time.

I think this whole forum so far is filled with very many ignorant remarks and opinions.

Firstly, this is this is a blog, not a forum. Secondly I kinda agree with your post on ignorance but from a different perspective. Thirdly, I really really know evolutionary science and how evolution works (yes, I actually took the time to learn how the REAL theory goes, and the mechanics behind how it works.)

I know where the source of my information comes. A trusted author whom I respect. I can also look at your arguments here on evolution, and I notice they are wrong.. where does the rest of your opinion go then?

Just so people understand where you are coming from. You have a couple of incorrect swipes at evolution, and then you try pretend evolution says there is no god, and go on to try an ad hominem attack on the people responding here in a method that is passive aggressive.

Just so people know where THIS information comes from.

Thank you for taking the time to respond Karl, but I seriously advise that if you wish to debate evolution you come better equipped. Your arguments are wrong and I will correct them.

Kind Regards,
PB

EDIT: I did try join your forum to discuss this subject but I got the following error when trying to sign up:

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, help@prefix.co.za and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Also, your forum appears to have a spam problem you may wish to have a look at.

06/12/07 @ 08:16

Comment from: pb [Member]

Please note, this is an email I received from Al Lovejoy http://www.acidalex.com Email: say_goeters@yahoo.co.uk · Due to problems with my spam filter I am posting it directly here under my username:

To the Pickledbushman and all the other bloggers - above is a statement I made about donating my royalties and the exploitation of the movie rights to "Acid Alex" - HALT! STOP! I have a big bek - my bad. Let me make a few corrections...Firstly on the movie, I own 100% of nothing. It's not going to happen without a script and as yet there isn't one. Mostly because I fell in with the wrong crowd and took a long time to get out. Writing a bestseller doesn't actually mean making money in South Africa - It means a heck of a lot of people read the book without actually buying it. Cool Runnings. At any rate - it hasn't been cheapskate readers - it's been booksellers who've given the book the most stick and refuse to stock it - so it is hard to obtain. The only PNA/CNA sales I've had were from adamant fans telling them to order the book. I understand...we live in South Africa...I grew up with it. So my royalty payouts usually only just about cover my own book account with Struik. Any kid relying on my royalties for an education is going to end up one seriously ignorant rug-rat. Ag, I told my lawyer to tear up the papers - BUT that doesn't mean I've given up or not achieved anything so far. Listing the kids, individuals and families that we have been able to do things for with other income of ours will cheapen it. And I've decided that is our very personal business. I'm not like these 10%'ers, who give so that they can get - screw that, love isn't a financial transaction and in my understanding neither is salvation. I went after the money thing in the church to show these fools how they sold the Lord's Supper and their priesthoods to a bunch of men with perfect orthodontics and shiny suits. I think I managed to get a ball rolling...kwaai. From now on I can live my life for my family - whatever definition I choose to give to family. And leave these idiots to their own folly. Perfect.

And Roelof we are not living in the first century. We are living in Stellenbosch with squatter settlements, ghettoes, tik, rape and teenage murder. There are very, very serious questions that need to be raised concerning a man who comes into an established and growing Christian community - shuns it, judges it and then goes about spreading disunity in that community over controversial doctrines and likewise sowing fictitious demonic fear - mostly amongst youngsters at university and away from the protection of their parents and home churches – so as to draw ever more paying followers to himself. A man who appointed himself above the community's established renewal church. A man not accountable to anyone but God apparently. A man whom to this day still claims subliminally that he alone hears the voice of God. And a man who misinterprets scripture for pure financial gain through fraud - by using bluntly heretic scriptural teachings to extort the tertiary education funds, which the students are supposed to spend on their educations and taking care of themselves – so HE can live in a big house, drive luxury cars, live like a king and have a warehouse party for Jesus every weekend without ever having done a single day of honest labour to afford it all. Not only that but he interferes with the students educations by dabbling in superstitious flat earth nonsense that he is utterly unqualified academically to even begin trying to teach. He has no degree in theology and no B.Sc behind his name either. He is not a member of any single faculty, least of all the Theology or Natural Science's faculties and he has never studied at the University of Stellenbosch. He could not even register Shofar as a student organisation - he had to coerce student's into doing that for him too. There are serious reasons why checks and balances exist in the church. It is to protect the church and our community against the likes of Fred May and his ilk. I used to be his neighbour and all those wonderful sermons you talk about come from memorising and listening to hours and hours and hours of American "Praise the Lord and Pass the Loot"'ers tapes - for days and days on end. That is what he was doing all day while other people were out working for the privilege of giving him their money. Honing his religious oratory skills like a card-sharp does. I could toss a parrot in the room with him and it would come out spouting Rhema Scripture all the way back to Kenneth Hagin and still have people digging in their pockets to give Polly 10%. That has nothing to do with real theology or the role of the church in the community. Filthy hell holes like Slabstown did not exist fourteen years ago and now they are the seedbed of crime in Stellenbosch while this kind of rubbish keeps on going on. Shofar came around to one of the shops me and Tash are taking over to solicit funds so that they can go to Mozambique this winter varsity vacation. She asked them why they wouldn't they rather go to Slabstown just walking distance down the road and they got angry and left...Fred May’s disciples to the core. Off for a warmer winter vacation and a lekker fun human safari for Jesus – bring your bible, camera and condescending attitude...

06/12/07 @ 15:10

Comment from: Carl Kirstein [Visitor]

06/12/07 @ 15:40

Comment from: pb [Member]

Pb, you keep on saying I am wrong without qualifying why I am wrong. You want me to name the sources of my arguments yet you fail to present your own. So I am not sure what I am supposed to do with your comments... Our correspondance seems to heading towards "youre wrong" "Nooo, youre wrong" "Nooo, YOURE wrong" etc. so lets rather just drop it... I have explained myself well enough (citing NUMEROUS sources) on the thought website

That's a cop out. If you disagree with a single one of the points I have made, please tell me which ones. You cover a lot different ideas and hop around into different topics while trying to amalgamate them as one.

If there is one point (or more) I have mentioned that you don't believe ask me to validate what I am saying. That's why I ask you. I have ample source and information.

By the way: I have also believed in evolution (And God) for many years until I was challenged to start studying in proper detail. Regardless of your (single?) source, evolution is based on certain principles. Whether you have gone and added your own interpretations to it is irrelevant... because Shofar is not attacking YOUR perspective per se, but the accepted perspective in the scientific community.

I don't believe you have studied it in detail. You don't seem to know how the mechanics work and what they. To quantify what I say let me give you an example.

The main mechanics of evolution:

Variation
Mutation
Recombination

Mechanisms
Natural selection
Genetic drift
Gene flow

Now you say, Shofar does not attack macro-evolution (aka speciation).

First I think you dont understand the term well enough. Speciation is the process where a species diverges into two descendant species. In all honestly it is more a result than an actual mechanic. However what it shows is that one species now becomes two different species. So we have a new species on the planet as a result (I guess it missed creation and God is playing catch up).

Going over your post again I think you have confused the terms Micro and Macro evolution. Macroevolution refers to evolution that occurs at or above the level of species. Something you would have issues with. Microevolution refers to changes with in a species. IE Pigment change and such. Speciation can happen in both Micro and Macro evolution.

Sorry, Im still getting use to these phrases "micro and macro" evolution. A quick look at wiki shows that scientists dont use those words. However, the best way to describe Macroevolution is to think of it as the compounded effects of microevolution.

Then you go on about "Furthermore the evolutionary viewpoint claims that God does not exist"

Which as I mentioned is false. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with God, and some of the brightest Christians in the world like Collins believe in both the theory of evolution and God. It does not test their faith as they understand the metaphorical story behind creation. In fact even the Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution.

Then we have to still go into another level. Which God do you think the theory of evolution effects? The Christian God? The Christian fundamental God? The Christian Apologist God? The Islamic God? The Hindu Gods? The last I checked the theory of evolution doesn't refer to them.

I think what has happened here is because of your literal interpretation of events in Genesis, it conflicts with reliable evolutionary science.

I can go through everything phrase by phrase, but if you wish to challenge ANYTHING I say, please feel free to do so. I am sometimes wrong, I know this and if I am wrong I want to rectify it. So what I suggest you make a post (in the the evolutionary blog post), quoting my points you believe are wrong. I will then make sure I qualify every point I have with WELL DOCUMENTED information.

Also, I happen to be a scientist (engineer with a masters degree in fluid dynamics) as well, and have a keen interest in physics, micro biology, and natural science.

As a scientist I expect you to know how a theory works and how exact definitions work. I don't mean to rag you, but you have not showed that here. As a scientist you should know if there is any evidence that proves a theory wrong... well its wrong. Its not a real theory as scientists understand a theory to be. If it wrong the theory needs to be changed.

As a scientist I expect you to know how the principles of empirical evidence and predictable testing. Should you wish, call me out and I can give you a list of experiments on how to test the theory of evolution.

Hope to see more replies from you, and if you question anything I say, please point it out and I respond to it with sources.

Regards
PB

06/12/07 @ 16:58

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

Lovejoy:
I just don't think are so black and white as you represent them. As I said before, I definately do not agree with Fred May on everything. Especially as he insists on attacking the NG church in which I received the grounding for my faith. But your arguments seem to be based mostly on personal perceptions and hearsay.

So Fred May had Rhema playing on his tv. I have watched some Rhema to see what all the fuss is about and NONE of the sermons I heard have any challenging and intectual merits, unlike some of Fred's sermons I have attended. So I doubt that Rhema is his only source of education as you claim. Have you ever attended a Fred May sermon? Also if you are so keen to refer to the early church and the old testament, not all of the priests or leaders where "ordained" by the "official" religious body of the time.

As to the mindless, slave-like church members you portray, I think this is a gross generalisation. I have met some people who I think may be classified under your descriptions of Shofar members. But as I have said before, I also know and have lived in a house for 2 years with some of the most awesome, love-filled individuals I have ever met. Do you have any friends in Shofar, or are your accusations once again based on hearsay?

Regarding your comments about slab town, I agree with some of what you said. Outreach to poverty stricken areas close to where you live is a must. But when you rubbish actions to Mozambique you also don't know what you are talking about. First of all the missionary outreaches are mostly used to support local preachers from Mozambique, hardly a "condescending attitude" towards the locals. And the some Shofar outreaches involve building a church or something similar. I have been on a "building outreach" to the Transkei before with the NG church. I can tell you those 2 weeks involved the toughest physical challenge I have ever faced, hardly a "holiday". Have you ever been on such a outreach Lovejoy? Or are you once again speaking about things which you have not experience about?

As to regards to tithing (in your early post), your arguments seem to me to be very selective and contain many half-truths. And quoting a lot of big theological words at the does not prove to me that you know what you are talking about. Once again things are not so black and white as you attempt to make them out to be.

06/13/07 @ 12:27

Comment from: pb [Member]

Thats why I dont give my money to the Church. It goes to the preachers, and most often and not to make more churches. I prefer helping people directly, instead of paying people to make them concentrate on death.

My personal opinion and a little OT.

PS, Its not just Al saying this stuff Roelof.. its a lot of people.

06/13/07 @ 13:46

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

I am not against helping people directly pb, if thats what you want to do by all means. But I also don't think it is wrong to give your money to the church. Most churches I know are very transparent in how much money they receive and what it goes for. And a church sometimes has the resources to achieve something lasting and on a scale that I as an individual cannot.

Also with regards to tithing I am not really sure what Al is opposed to. Is it only Shofar's tithing? Or all churches? If it is only Shofar is it because he thinks Fred takes to much for himself? Or that students should be exempt from tithing? Or does he think that you shouldn't give money to the church, but only directly to the poor? But not 10%, because then the students won't be able to afford it. Or maybe he thinks that there should be no pastors? Or that there must be pastors, but that they should not receive any money.

"PS, Its not just Al saying this stuff Roelof.. its a lot of people."
Lots of people can say whatever they want, I am not famous or influential enough to influence large groups of people, nor do I want to. But Al replied to me personally and I attempted to address his points which I think are ill informed. "A lot of people" also feel the same way I do. The fact that many people subscribe to the same school of thought does not make it more or less valid. I try and stick to facts and my own personal experience when making up my mind about something, not what I perceive others to be thinking.

06/13/07 @ 14:58

Comment from: pb [Member]

I am posting an email response from Al Lovejoy on his behalf in regards to this conversation:

"Actually Fred May had cassette tapes playing on my boom box all day, which he used to send his five year old son over to fetch from me and bring back - until I got sick of him manipulating his own kid to get what he wanted and sat Stefan down one day then explained that I was giving my boom box to him as present and he could keep it forever and forever and lend it to his dad himself - but only if he asked please first. Everything I say about this man is first hand knowledge.

You say it's hearsay and I must make it personal...okay, let me tell you a story. A personal story. I had left/got thrown out of Shofar for disagreeing with Fred about outreach and the role of the church in the poorest parts of our community. In essence he told me that I should be very careful about trying to minister to the poor and that he had only been sent by God to the students. I in essence said – bullsh*t. The Great Commission says go into all the world...starting right there in your own home town.
At the time I was under house arrest so my movements were very restricted. Without a single shred of evidence, he called my parole officer and asked for a meeting. He wasn't my pastor, I had no ties with Shofar anymore but he still called my parole officer and told him I was smoking mandrax across the road. Fred May knew exactly what was at stake; I would go back inside and finish my sentence to the last day.
What Fred didn't know was that Rodney and I had become friends and made a pact. Lt. Rodney Barkhuizen was they only real friend I ever made in law enforcement. Our agreement was that - I would never lie about mandrax and he wouldn't put me back inside. Rodney asked me what would happen if they tested my urine? I told him nothing. They tested me, it was obviously negative and then Rodney sat me down and warned me to stay as far away from Fred May as possible. He told me straight out - that man means to do you harm, he really wants you out of the way and in jail. Stay away from him! What kind of Christian leader tries to have someone put in jail for something THEY DIDN’T EVEN DO??? What kind of Christian leader tries to have someone put in jail - Period? I didn't steal anything of his; I never hurt him or one of his family. I never destroyed or damaged any of his property. I didn't even swear or shout at him. So why want me in jail so bad – He (assumes??) reckons I'm doing hard drugs and piemps me to the boere!! You told me to get personal - now don't go accusing me of holding grudges on top of it. This is just a personal account of how this ou operates.
One of my best friends was ordered by Fred May to break off all contact with me and when he refused and said that he had a right to be friends with whomever he wanted to be - he was thrown out the church.
Why? Why? Because I wouldn't shut up.

Some more personal, first hand things, this time a sermon. The filthiest thing I ever heard him bawl out from his pulpit was one night when he worked himself up into a frenzy and claimed that when Christ was sweating blood and praying in the garden prior to His arrest - "it was just a childish temper tantrum to get out of it". That is the exact point he revealed himself to me. And this man claims to love God???
As far as I am concerned everything that comes out of that pseudo-personality is some kind of lie dressed up as something else. And using Christ for gain, payback for growing up on the Cape Flats and nothing else.
I have never said there are no real Christians in Shofar. But they are Christians because God led them into a relationship with Him through Jesus Christ - not Shofar. And Christ said: "If you only love those who love you - you are no better than the rest of the world", so I'm sure you had a wonderful time with wonderful people in your closed circle.
And Ja, I've built houses, worked in the bush, stood in a bucket bath in the Transkei almost sick to death with pleuresy and praying for the funds to get anti-biotics. I've worked with Hindus, Xhosas, children on the street, lived by the seat of my pants and faith - there was a time where for three months I was preaching three times a day in churches of every denomination you can imagine. I am a chid missionary. Read Acid Alex - a lot of it is in there. I still am and I’m still busy and what we are doing is none of your business – so don’t bother asking unless you want to get your hands dirty. What gave you the impression that I need hearsay or that I’ve never walked the walk…?"

06/13/07 @ 18:01

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

And Roelof as regards your last post - if you are going to descend into absurdity and get silly - this conversation is over. We are discussing a cult and its leader not the true body of Christ or Christian believers...

06/14/07 @ 08:09

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

And similarly Roelof, you negate my education - tell me I don't know my subject matter and that I teach half-truths. Very serious accusations. Okay, cool, then put your education where your mouth is and you tell me and all the other bloggers here the whole truth concerning Christian cash tithing...you seem to know more than I do - so give us a little lecture.

06/14/07 @ 08:26

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

The problem is Al that I don't know you. I don't know anything about your past and personal experiences and education. So the only thing I can go by is by what you post. So when I stumbled randomly on this blog and read the vicious, seemingly baseless attacks on the Shofar Church I tried to show that I have experienced many positive things from them along with some negative ones. There are many people out there who are not so educated about the subject matter as you are. I would like them to be able to make up their own minds by providing them with facts and personal experiences, instead of just bull-dozing them into what I believe.

After your last posts we have now learned more about why you feel so strongly about Shofar. What I am trying to say is if you want to get involved in such a sensitive topic I think you should take the time to give objective reasons for your feelings and thoughts or not get involved at all. I know you probably don’t want to rehash your entire story every time you post, but I think you should either provide your reasons or not post such a strongly opinionated post.

"As to regards to tithing (in your early post), your arguments seem to me to be very selective and contain many half-truths. And quoting a lot of big theological words at the does not prove to me that you know what you are talking about. Once again things are not so black and white as you attempt to make them out to be."

This was my previous post. I'm sure you agree that your 2 or 3 paragraphs are not the definitive and all-inclusive teaching on tithing. I don’t pretend to be able to give such an all-inclusive teaching. I agree maybe the words ‘half-truths” where uncalled for.
But I still very definitely think your examples where selective, and while they provided some history of tithing I didn’t quite see what they really had to do with your point. And then at the end you tried to bulldoze by saying (in my paraphrase) “Because I have studied this and know all these big words I am right, so your opinion doesn’t count because you don’t know these terms”. That is a bit strongly put I know, but that’s the feeling I got and I’m sure Karl as well. I did not intend to attack your education but simply your post.

So to summarize:
Once again I have been pulled into the same kind of argument as with pb about his original post. And for the same kind of reasons. I object to the manner in which you gave your opinion, not to you as a person (who I don’t know) or an author (who I haven’t read). Bear in mind that we (the readers of your posts) are not inside your head and do not know the reasons behind your arguments and statements.
You also have every right to feel strongly about things, but I think some of your posts are unnecessarily aggressive. People who are ignorant about Christianity in general will just see your posts as validation that the entire church is fake. I certainly got a general impression of anti-christianity when I read the first posts of both you and pb. Only after your further posts has it become clear that you are not, in fact, against all Christians.

I apologize if I have offended you personally. I once again appeal to all, (myself included) to discuss this sensitive topic of faith and churches in an objective and calm manner.

06/15/07 @ 12:49

Comment from: pb [Member]

Roelof, Al Lovejoy is the author of the bestseller book 'Acid Alex'. Its a very detailed and honest description of his life. I really suggest you read it to get the insight you need. Al's website is http://www.acidalex.com .

Its a book I would highly recommend you read.

06/15/07 @ 13:03

Comment from: Roelof [Visitor]

Thank you pb, maybe I will. I am not against Al or his book at all.

My point was just that his posts on a public blog should not require a knowledge of his life or book in order to be make sense. For me who has no prior knowledge about Al the first posts especially came across as extremely aggresive without providing factual backing.

But anyway, sorry to have disrupted your blog again.

06/15/07 @ 14:45

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

Okay, which of the following statements is untrue or half true concerning the heresy of Christian cash tithing?

1. Abraham never tithed of his own personal property or livestock. He tithed the spoils of war and he wouldn’t touch any of it himself.
2. Jacob wouldn’t tithe until God blessed him first and that tithe went to the poor.
3. Only Levite priests could collect tithes, and there are no Levite priests today.
4. Only food products from the land (not sea) were titheable.
5. Money was never a titheable commodity.
6. Christian converts were never asked to tithe anything to the Church.

No agression, just simple answers - which of those statements is false or a "half-tuth"? And Roelof I am agressive towards heresy and cult personalities because they bring about the spiritual decay that surrounds us...and I for one am sick of seeing children grow up in h*ll and become vicious criminals when ALL the resources and the people who care enough are available - they are just being held back and their attention diverted from the real issues. In that wonderful time you spent with Shofar - how much local outreach did you DO in the local ghettoes and squatter settlements? See, that was what Tash was alluding to when she spoke to the money collectors from Shofar - she wasn't "rubbishing" outreach to Mozambique - it was more a direct question of: Shouldn't you be cleaning up your own doorstep first???

06/15/07 @ 19:18

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

And just so that I don't repeat myself too many times, here is something I posted on another blog:

when I go into these areas I see the kids, I see the hopelessness, pain, misery and I know I'm watching the future crime rate running around in the filth where childhood loses out to sheer animal survival. It tears me apart knowing that ALL the resources and the people who care enough are out there and have been for years, but somehow they are being held back from being the light in those dark places. Either that or they are choosing to. Its seems to me almost as if there is a cold war of sorts against these children. One of those surround them and starve them out type of wars except this is spiritual starvation too. It drives me nuts.
When that kid playing in the mud with a piece of rubbish - is standing over someone ten years later with a gun - compassion and love are things he has never ever experienced, so how can he show them? All he can show is that he has the power to hurt people like he was. And he will pull the trigger.
People in Stellenbosch cry about the crime rate but most of the crime is subsistence crime and the criminals are children and teenagers whom they shun and ignore spiritually - mostly I suppose because of race. Intervention means assuming responsibility. These charismatic churches collect millions from tithing - to do what with? In years - I have seen nothing spent on outreach into the ghettoes, programs to try and transform squatter settlements into communities who have a tiny bit of hope and get people from living on the garbage dump. These people scavange garbage to sell to re-cyclers and it is never enough so when the children get big enough - they go into town, smash cars, break in and steal. Anyone who gets in the way gets hurt to avoid detection.
How do you make people aware that church means being responsible for those kids because their caregivers can not and Christ said they are holy. That the spiritual decay is not from the devil - it is from the church avoiding its resposibility and being a light in a dark world. Fred May hammers on the Catholics - at least they do something! One of the reasons I began this awareness campaign was to make students realise that the Christian student body of the University of Stellenbosch has no real differences - except those that creeps like Fred May create to divert their attention from the real issues. That each and every one of them only has faith in Jesus Christ because even that was a gift from God - not their congregation, organisation or pastor. That their money and responsibilities as Christians are their own - not someone else's agenda.

06/17/07 @ 16:11

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

The most interesting word on this blog is "pettifoggers" - thanks pb...! As an amateur semanticist - I would break it down into the French, petti - meaning small - and foggers, thick vapour that hinders visibility.

I've also been watching, with great interest the: Evolution vs. Seven day creation, six to twelve thousand years ago - debate, with avid interest from both sides of the coin - waiting to see if someone came up with the goods. I've been disappointed. All I've heard is religious ranting going at it hell for leather with scientific syncopating - and never the twain shall meet...

Let me try and recap the best lecture I was ever given on this subject by one of my professors.

He first asked the class: Who wrote Genesis and thus the account of creation? Moses, most of us (who had done our homework) cried. Yes, he agreed most scholars believe that Moses either personally wrote Genesis or trained scribes to do so in the manner of his high Egyptian upbringing. Second question he asked us: So if Moses wrote the book of Genesis thousands of years after the Biblical story of creation, how then could he have been an eye witness to these events?

That floored the whole class.

Very good question.

Firstly he told us - the Bible is not a scientific paper or a proof. It was never intended to be. The Bible is inspired spiritual literature. It cannot either prove or disprove the theory of evolution or the evolution of the theory of evolution because that is not its purpose. As Christians we cannot ignore the knowledge that science is bringing to man. We would be foolish to do so.

He gave us a theory, just a theory of where Moses got his information and said: Moses went up Mt. Sinai to fast for forty days, meaning realistically that he was up there a very long time; so long in fact that people maybe thought he had died. Now something that happens in extreme cases of exposure and malnutrition is the patient begins to hallucinate - lots of medical reasons that we are not going to go into. Consider, that on the first day Moses was up there, seeing things - he saw: Let there be light or what quantum physicists call the Big Bang. On day two he saw the formation of our solar system. On day three our planet form into oceans, land and weather systems. On day four our life sustaining eco-system. On day five the emergence of multi-cellular organisms that become animals in the sea, air and on land. On day six - the appearance of man on land. He didn't see anything on the seventh day.

Now that is probably the best Christian theory of Creation I've ever heard - not that I go with it, the way he paralleled the Bible to what science is telling us made it fall into place for me. There is no argument.

I've pinched something written by a guy called Mark on another blog titled 10 ways to tell you are a fundamentalist Christian (If I pinched it and say so that’s not plagiarism is it? I pinched it honestly at least…):

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

The point I’ve been trying to make is that being a Christian means making the world outside your door a better place. “Love thy neighbour…???” And you can do that with a strip of masking tape over your mouth - because all you really need are your hands and heart. In our country – Jesus would have been classified a hotnot and would never have been allowed in a white church anyway. What? Go down to your local mosque on Friday and look at what men of middle eastern descent look like. There. He looked like that, and in South Africa that would make him a hotnot or what Capetownians call a gammat. Never have been allowed in a white slavery church…what’s changed…?

Begone pettifoggers…!!!

06/18/07 @ 00:45

Comment from: pb [Member]

Hey Al,

I believe those quotes are originally from the the website www.evilbible.com

Might upset some,

Pb

06/20/07 @ 14:26

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

Ah, so Mark is the plagiarist - and terrible apologies to all at that other site. Don't sue me I'm too poor...lol

06/20/07 @ 18:34

Comment from: pb [Member]

Knowledge is for all to share :)

06/20/07 @ 20:24

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

I'm disengaging from this whole ugly business with Shofar - I said pretty much the same things on the Facebook site at: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2509925449&ref=mf and http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2361749801&ref=mf - and it is kinda about all I want to say anyway. Some kid Abraham started misquoting scripture to "hand over the evil one" and I lost complete interest. The poor fool thinks cursing me and handing me over to the devil is going to make things better - as if he had the right in the fist place!!! I tell them their boss is a fraud and somehow that makes me evil. What is sickening is it is the exact same passage that Fred May uses to manipulate recalcitrant followers and get them back into line.

CULT, CULT, CULT, CULT, CULT!!!!

Ciao - Al Lovejoy

P.S. It's been fun pb, would love to meet you in person and chat - I think it would be an illuminating experience...Al

06/21/07 @ 22:57

Comment from: Brother J [Visitor]

Al

I love this line on the cover of your book; "Acid Alex will shock you, assault, educate and entertain you, and take you on a trip beyond your wildest imagining." It's so true…

Throughout your book I was filled with various kinds of emotions from anger to love to forgiveness… It was an experience I wouldn't change for anything in this world.

My heart sank as I closed the book for the final time… A story worth a thousand words…

I loved the way you shared the love of Christ in a book which will probably never be accepted within the church. I believe that you did and are still doing a better job than so many evangelicals… You're real and that's why I loved it. You spoke from the heart and it's evidently clear that you did so… I felt a small portion of your pain and it was unbearable for me… I had to put the book down at times… yet, your story was one that kept me coming back for more. I wanted to hear the final outcome. I wanted to know why you're the man you are today and why I have so much respect for you.

The pain that you have gone through has taught me so much about Christ's love for me as an individual. It doesn't stop there, you to have helped me look at the way I live my life. You've made me look at what I take seriously and what I don't. You've made me look at my life and question what I've done and why I've done it. You've helped me realise that my past is my past and my future is my future…

I found myself many times where I had moaned and groaned over the silly things I have to deal with in my life, turning to look at yours. Every time I take a glimpse, I'm utterly at a loss for words… My life, which I consider to be so demanding and out rightly continuously full of on going crap seems like a speck of dust in comparison to yours… Here I am complaining that my chicken is dry whilst you're munching down on pap filled with worms, which you considered as protein.

I'm pissed off with the way the church reacted to you and I'm pissed off at the fact that these guys are so called pastors. True, there is always a second side to a story, but the way you share your story makes me question as to whether it really is necessary for one to be apart of a congregation. I experience more on a day to day basis, God's love outside the church than I do in it. I think the majority of the church has horribly missed the point. They have no idea what love actually is. Your book Al, is filled to the brim with the truth of what I would refer to as Gods love. A simple yet important message: God loves me, regardless of what I am and what I've done.

It pisses me off immensely to see how people ridicule you for your theology and don't have the balls to stand up and fight you. They believe so firmly that their theology is the correct way, yet they can't stand up and debate with you? And these men are pastors!!! Leaders of God's church!!! The anger that fills me brings tears to my eyes and makes my heart ache… So many children, women and men are out there… crying for the love of God… and those who are suppose ably the ones who know all about the love of God know absolutely nothing about it.

Not only did you educate me, shock me and assault me, you entertained me… Through my tears as I read your story, there were moments where I laughed and giggled to myself. There were times where I wanted to strangle you because of your stupidity. Yet, through it all, I wanted to shake your hand and thank you for showing me the love of God like no pastor ever has…

I truly do hope that one day we will get to meet and have that cold one you asked for…

Thank you again, for a story which has touched me deeply. Words will never truly be able to explain the impact you have made upon my life and the way I look at myself and others.

Again, thank you…

Your friend and brother in Christ,
Brother J

Hey All…

I wanted to post this letter, which I mailed to Al Lovejoy, in order for you to quite possibly grasp just a small portion of the emotions stirred inside of me whilst reading his phenomenal book entitled, "Acid Alex." Al received so much criticism when I questioned his understanding on salvation in a previous blog I wrote entitled, "Too be saved or not be saved, that is the question." I was blown away at how he showed me how shallow minded I was when it came to my understanding of scripture…I think Al is an incredible guy regardless of what some of you might think.

If there is one book I could recommend reading in order to gain an understanding of God's love, it's Acid Alex. It's raw and it's real. It's tough and it's heart breaking. It's funny and it brings a smile to one's face. It is undoubtedly, one of the best (if not the best) books I have ever read.

Again, thanks Al…

Keep well all,

Much love and respect,

Brother J

06/24/07 @ 11:25

Comment from: johnF [Visitor]

HI everyone

i have just read this and would like to give my 2 cents also. first, i want to thank roelof for his sensitivity and objectivity and have found your postings most insightfull. al, you have said a few things that i will no doubt consider and educate mysylf about, but there are some things i want you to teach me about as i have read most of your postings on this site and elsewhere. the reason for this question is because if i want to understand your aggresive critique of shofar i no doubt need to understand the person from whom it is coming so here goes. what is your doctrine on salvation? doctrine on foul language?is smoking marijuana wrong from a christian perspective? thank you and am looking forward to learning more from you. God bless.

07/09/07 @ 14:30

Comment from: pb [Member]

A response to John from Al Lovejoy @ acidalex.com

"I'm not only after Shofar - I want to see Ray McCauley i.e. Rhema, the IFCC and the leadership of Shofar exposed for the cheap, money-grubbing, con-artists they really are.

So, to answer your rather revealing questions:

1. Read Acid Alex for an account of my salvation experience.

2. Read the following story and answer my question at the end (to answer yours):

I have a very, very dear personal friend, let’s call him Mike.

Mike and a couple of his high-school friends are up on the hill in Paarl where all the kids hang out one Friday night, crammed together in a car and sharing a joint. Unfortunately for them, they are laughing, freaking and having so much fun – they don’t see the boerevan pull in….
Okay so they get bust.
The boere breathe all hot and heavy to scare them and then take each one home – let the parents take care of it (wink, wink), which is reasonable and fair. All the other laaities get dropped off to grim folks and long groundings but Mike’s parents insist that the boere come in and search his room.
Something you have to understand about Mike’s parents is that they are really, really on fire for the Lord. So on fire in fact that their daughter tried to contact Childline when she was a girl, because she didn’t want to pray and do bible study all the time and got dragged home by her father by the hair. She eventually ran away from home at sixteen. Mike is a deep introvert and eventually vented his own frustration when he was a teenager by taping an inverted pentagram over a beautiful picture of Jesus that he had painted himself some years earlier.
So the boere reluctantly skut, with the help of Mike’s parents and find a couple of seeds that Mike had been treasuring in a bankie with some vague dream of growing his own herb one day.
Mike’s father insists that they arrest and charge him. So they do but on the way out Mike’s father takes the one cop aside and tells him the boy is a Satanist. And that sealed his fate. The boere took him, booked him and tossed him in a cell alone. Then later that night they took all the nongalosha (28’s) – the sodomisers out of the other cells and put them in with Mike and they robbed, beat and raped him all weekend. In court Mike’s parents insisted that he be sent to Noupoort. And he was sent there and beaten and punished for Jesus for a year. You may not believe this but Mike is a deeply committed Christian and loves the Lord. But he has been so badly hurt that he prefers to be with the Lord alone. His parents don’t trust him anymore so while he was studying here they would either buy him food or sent him small amounts of pocket money through one of their friends in ministry so he could feed himself. Once they gave his pocket money to Morne Bosch a senior leader in Shofar and who refused to give the money to him until he came to a Shofar meeting. I looked after Mike and fed him until the manipulating piece of shit eventually relented and handed Mike's food money over a couple of days later.

My Question: Please point out the obscenity in my story.

3. Gen 1:29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed [cannabis sativa, cannabis indica, etc]; to you it shall be as food", Gen 2:16 And the Lord commanded man saying: "Of every tree you may eat freely [cannabis sativa, cannabis indica, etc] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die".

I hope that apeases your silly nursery school judgements. If you need to look for things in my life that are a problem to you - then maybe you should be looking at your own. And son, I prefer pure unadulterated, biaatch slapping agression to passive-aggresive judgement, cross-dressing as something else. Why the pointy-nose probing questions? Do you smoke zol and feel guilty about it? Something else? What are you trying to find in me that you can use as a means to hide something in yourself? Something you can't get past in your own conscience...??? You have nothing to give me in your questions in spite of trying to pander to me - and that means you want something else...

What? Do you think I can't read you...?

Build a bridge and get over yourself nigga - Jesus loves you honey-bunny, an y'all got no say in de matter...me neither...feel me now?"

07/11/07 @ 16:16

Comment from: johnF [Visitor]

thank you for responding.i have no idea where you come with this aggressive reply. i suspect you think there is a snake in the grass.there is not. i really want to know how you interpret the bible so that i can hopefully learn more from the bible through the views of other. is the story meant to justify marifuana? I have heard opponents of this version(the scriptures) say "yes, but the Lord also gave us stones but he didnt tell us to throw each other with it" can you help please, not attack me? also, i cannot seem to find your answer on my question about whether foul language is wrong from a christian perspective? another thing, i am very glad you are saved and hope you all the best. but what is your doctrine on salvation? for example, is everyone saved already? or do you have to do something to attain it? as you know, many people teach many different things so it is hard to keep by on what is true and not.please help me regarding this. thank you.

07/12/07 @ 12:07

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

Okay, let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Your questions seemed sarcastically rhetorical. And I'm sick of it.

The very best advice I can give you is to start with the direct words of Christ as told in the gospels. If another piece of scripture does not fall into line with what Christ said then it is either being interpreted incorrectly or being used for the wrong reasons. Also pay special attention to whom He is speaking, the context and what the people around Him said and did in response.

Nothing that we put in our bodies makes us evil, Christ made that clear. Eating, drinking and smoking have no morals attached to them other than those created by the legalistic church. BUT if say... drinking causes you to become violently intoxicated, lose control and beat your wife then your alcohol abuse needs to be addressed as well as the more important issue of your suppressed, violent attitude towards women. If you did not beat your wife then there would be no issue with your imbibing alcohol. See, so nothing you put into your body makes you evil.

If you want to smoke in spite of the health hazard, do so. However, if you smoke and it is a sin to you - then it is a sin to you. If it is not a sin to you but it is a sin to someone sitting in the room with you then it is better not to smoke for your brother's sake. Rather go outside and smoke alone. But we may certainly eat space cakes and meat sacrificed to Hindu idols if we happen to be backpacking through the Far East and it is cooked and offered as a hospitable meal. You cannot attach imaginary morality to anything you consume, metabolise, and then crap or piss out. Christ said so.

Language does not offend me - children living in garbage in hellholes offends me and I choose to be deliberately offensive to the so-called spiritual leaders who are directly responsible for this either through shunning or ignoring them. Maybe I was a convict, soldier, gangster and hard bastard for too long and need to admit it is a character flaw that I must work on.

As regards salvation:

Christ said that it was not the will of the father that any child born into this world should perish - He also said that he had come to do the will of His Father...do not try to look further than that. The view from that seat is God's alone - not ours, else we would have to judge ourselves and only God can judge the heart. For practical purposes treat the world as saved but in ignorance of the fact, that way you must repect people even more and they do not become reduced to head hunted objects - they might even become your friends and brothers and sister in Christ if you do it right.

Personally, if you have real questions that you are seeking to find the answers to...questions concering who you are and an inkling into your true purpose then, do the following:

1. Make time to be completely alone.
2. Decide carefully what questions you want to ask.
3. Then ask those questions, but when you ask - ask expectantly - knowing that you will get answers because Someone is waiting for you to ask.
4. You cannot ask a question you already want a specific answer to, because that is not a question, it is coercive manipulation. Your answers are guaranteed but that does not neccessarily mean immediately.
5. Do not bother looking at the perceived strengths or weaknesses of other people for your answers - they will disappoint you.
6. Do not try and replicate other people's experiences - you are unique. Your answers will be unique.
7. Do not attempt to undertand the Bible because until you have asked and received your answers - it will be a very confusing and somewhat frightening book.
8. When you have your answers - never ever forget where you got them from because that is the only place you will ever get answers, understand the Bible and see the difference between what is false and what is real...
9. Remember, having answers does not make you a better human being nor does it provide an automatic right to look down on and/or exploit other people who do not have them.
10. Unconditional love is something over which you have absolutely no control. It is not your choice and you cannot affect it by doing either good or bad things. And you can only experience it by accepting it - in spite of how much you think you might not deserve it. Somehow, deluding yourself into believing you deserve this love, which comes to you from far before and beyond your will is the only danger. Believing grace chose to give you this love and is waiting patiently for you to accept and grow into it - is the beginning of all answers...

Watch and pray.

07/12/07 @ 21:23

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

Go to this url for an equally comphrehensive exposure of http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2361749801&topic=2952

07/28/07 @ 11:20

Comment from: jonny [Visitor]

Dont anybody believe in God anymore.
The Bible sais that we must believe like children.
You people are going in too deep.Just believe.
Oh, and Al Lovejoy,is it true that you bummed of your girlfriends mother while writing the book, not giving her any money? Shame
And give Shovar a break.Their only doing what God tells them. And the things you say abou Fred May, come on, have you even met the man? He is amazing with the word of God, and im not even permenantly in Shovar.
Go look in your heart for awnsers and stop writing this nonsense. Please, its depressing.

10/23/07 @ 20:45

Comment from: Johann Basson [Visitor]

Hey Guys,
Please dont loose track of what really matters. I.e. Jesus Christ!

The devil likes the slander and lies! Christians should stand together and love one another...

Love

10/28/07 @ 22:32

Comment from: Al-Murray [Visitor]

Dear Al & pb

We are namesakes. Hmm, I was busy doing research about certain denominations when I stumbled across this blogpage. Don¡¦t ask me why, but I started reading. Or ask me why? Probably, because I know a little. : ) I have heard and read pieces of your book, how shall I describe it? Amusing¡KA colleague told me about your book, said it would: ¡§curious reading.¡¨ I am not being offensive my friend, I am just trying to steer you in a better direction. Honest that you are, to the point of being the new South African icon! : ) That always, makes me wonder. Please do me a favour, and do some extensive research on all your topics. I am not going to go into details because I simply don¡¦t have the time. But, I have studied religions, evolution, creationism, christianity to name but a few extensively. And one thing I know is this: Everyone and anyone can & will twist, rewrite, justify, simplify and educate others on matters pertaining to truth.( I am not talking about your book, but this blog. Blogs are pointless, won¡¦t get into that.)Anyway we are selfish, and we want to promote our truth. You my friend are only promoting your truth, relevant to your experience, and while doing so you are trying to link a whole community with little or no success. Yes, people have had bad experiences that is obvious. This is life, you fall, you learn and most importantly you grow. This has obviously become some sort of life project, and I am sure nothing will stop you short of death. You have a nasty obsession my friend. And you are not truly promoting or building anything worthy. Move on. Well, I must be off. I have spent enough time rambling on, as I always do. Take a long deep look in a mirror. It always shocks me. ƒº I am off, got a plan to catch. Unfortunately, I don¡¦t think I will be so lucky as to stumble on to this page twice. I never keep track of my web addresses, I am a bit old-fashioned.

I am sure you will write a five page reply, strengthening yourself and your followers.
: )

Regards
Al-Murray

10/30/07 @ 15:36

Comment from: Al Lovejoy [Visitor]

I didn't expect to make friends in certain circles either, but since I started this campaign - my "little or no success" in my community has yielded:

1.) The youth street shelter was re-opened in Bird St. in Stellenbosch
2.) A permanent night shelter has been opened in Cloetesville to get the homeless off the street and back on their feet
3.) Projects have been started with primary school children in local coloured areas teaching them chess and coaching them in sports
4.) A youth project has been started by Vineyard working with teenagers affected by tik
5.) The local Moederkerk built two houses in Kayamandi and gave them away
6.) I am in negotiations with folks to possibly open a free creche next year.

Little or no success...???

And none of this happened or was going to happen until I started fighting with local church leaders in 2005 about money and the church's responsibility to the poorest of the poor in our local community. And these churches all responded except Shofar, who did the exact opposite - and threatened to sue me and harassed my wife in public.

You think wanting the unspeakably poor and most especially their children to have a better chance through people who propagate "love your neighbour as yourself" - is a nasty obsession? I have no such problem "my friend".

I don't have followers and an icon is something you find on your desktop. And you must be one fuck off tough cookie if you consider Acid Alex merely amusing...Abject child abuse, drug abuse and spiritual abuse are not amusing - if you bothered to do me the courtesy of actually reading my book, you will find I had to make some parts amusing to make the story palatable when it got too dark.

People like you, who have half the story and then tell me to research my subject matter - just irritate me. Really. Get your own facts straight and when you want to be a book critic - try reading it first.

And although you paint yourself the superior-intellectual-atheist-under-informed-important-opinion person - you still act like these cult freaks...You don't like what I have to say, so jump into my character. And what a sad little puppy I would be if I needed to continue my life based on your affirmation..."my friend"

11/14/07 @ 05:40

Comment from: Observer [Visitor]

Howzit Alex?

I know you from my early days at Shofar. I know you well.

Wondered what happened to you and here you are in all your splendour.

I have now read a lot of what you wrote about Fred and here is my advice:

Forgive Fred.

Move on. Do what you need to do and God will take care of the rest.

Make your book available on the web for free and I'll read it. Hope it's good Alex, dont have time to waste on crazy stuff...

Are you trying to portray yourself as some kind of saviour?

Request: stay calm when you respond.

11/15/07 @ 23:11

Comment from: maria [Visitor]

I also have problems with the prosperity gospel and the established church, but wow, after reading your ranting about churches I conclude you are more judgmental and poisonous than the church. The church might have issues, but boy you really do have poison to dish out to other people. Where does all that anger really come from and where is it really directed? A lady once said to me that in her work she ignores those who cannot help her in her cause and instead spends all her energy focusing on the positive, and those who will work with her for what she considers positive causes. Do you have any energy left for anything positive?

11/17/07 @ 01:33

Comment from: pb [Member]

Emailed in and published on behalf of Al Lovejoy

"One man's meat is another man's poison Maria and I assume you are addressing me because PB tackles the fundamentalists version of creation and I am tackling their phony leadership.

See, if you practised what you preach and actually did like your friend whom you seem to look up to - you wouldn't be here looking down your nose at my character.

And this anger that dismays you so much has been with me for more than twenty years - I hate spiritual abuse, child abuse and on a more personal level - drug and alcohol abuse - although I'm far, far more tolerant of the latter in others, because that is a very real and human condition unlike the other two, which can and should be resisted forcefully and every effort made to expel it from our society. And I think this country has had enough of a cash strapped, moronic and racist "Jesus" - more than enough.

Christianity and cash "tithing" facilitated the business of slavery and apartheid in the church of South Africa, until it became too morally reprehensible - then the church, English and Afrikaans and blood guilty of this - mostly ran off into an American prosperity cult of personality brought to sunny SA by Ray McCauley and his gospel TV network - Rhema, aka Kenneth Hagin Ministries aka Mary Baker Eddy’s Christian Science whom “Dad” Hagin plagiarised his foundational false doctrines from and applied to making rich people richer instead of criminal medical negligence, wherin people are "imagined well" by being "positive" and "confessing" wellness - be it oncology or an amputation.

But that is nothing - do you want to see real poison Maria? Go look under the Kayamandi railway bridge in Stellenbosch - that is the direct effect of Rhema et al - in possibly the richest and most church building populated town in the whole of South Africa. The only "positive" thing that happened to those people recently was: The toilets and running water that the African National Congress installed for them, without charge - in 2005. This was AFTER "Transformation Stellenbosch", the local, formal, get-together of stinking rich (mostly white) Christian pastors solemnly PROMISED to help them personally on the front page of our local newspaper "Die Eikestadnuus" in 2003.

Now, the main big boy in "Transformation Stellenbosch" and the IFCC locally (Rhema’s tentacles nationally) is Fred May. Like his glutonous boss Ray, he is the richest pastor of them all here in the Bos - I mean, just his offices, and only his offices cost 25m or something to start with. We haven't even begun to talk about the cars, etc...

What did bog houses and a running cold tap cost the ANC? - Jesus' anointed and very special move, shake and prance around in the Holy Spirit prophet and all his important buddies with the important religious titles seemed to be too way too suinig and far, far to lazy even after promising those desperate folks in public.

Poison you say...???

Start taking the realities of the plight of desperate people, those who will never be able to defend themselves HERE at this level - seriously. Feel and live with their pain and you won't need to engage "poisonous" people for that fifteen seconds of attention as you set that maladjusted person straight. And don't bother asking me what "positive" things I am doing - I'm not going to tell you Maria, because I don't think you want to be my friend and only my friends are allowed into that part of my life.

Isn't there anyone out there who has something relevant to say here other than commenting on my rotten character - or should we all just join the ANC? They are supposed to be an atheist organisation, yet they are the only ones giving poor children water in Stellenbosch, exactly like Christ commanded - while his apparent very special and ultra sensitive disciples and pastors buy more and more into: Jesus died to give me everything I want materially - EVERYTHING!!! - see, it says so in Ray McCauley's Bible….

Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them –Ezekiel 34, Verses 3–6.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, MERCY, and FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Matt 23:23...

What did that last bit sound like?

Strychnine, cyanide...curare or maybe grandma’s ultra-secret: Death to Rats…!"

11/21/07 @ 14:56

Comment from: Observer [Visitor]

So Alex says that Fred needed a soapbox.

This initiative seems to me like a soapbox.

So he disappears for a while. Knows he has
a bit of writing talent, but needs a
differentiator.

So he creates a "brand" Al Lovejoy. And
targets a segment of society that loves
an "honest" swearing bloke who has a heart
for the poor.

Sort of like the bad guy who is actually
the good guy.

People must say: I can't wait for his next
book...

Clever marketing, but unwise choice of
topic in the long run.

My guess is that this is nothing but a
marketing initiative to establish the
brand - himself.

11/27/07 @ 13:42

Comment from: pb [Member]

PLEASE NOTE: To the guy who whined about me not posting his comment.. I did.. http://www.pickledbushman.com/index.php/2007/05/29/shofar_campus_christian_cult_part_2#c1186

In future perhaps you would like to try the more honest and direct route? Putting in a fake email address is lame, and if you are going to comment here and make it so personal why not try act with some integrity instead of like a snake. If you are big enough to comment on Al then you should be big enough to stand behind your words instead of hiding behind a fake email address.

Sometimes you people disgust me in the underhand backwards slimy way you handle things.

12/13/07 @ 12:50

Comment from: Observer [Visitor]

Alex, I mean PB

It took you forever to put the comments on.

Response again typical. You dont have to act like you being persecuted...

Why do you want my email anyway?

I think the long and short is just that I'm disappointed in you Alex.

12/13/07 @ 23:03

Comment from: pb [Member]

Hate to break it to you mate... I am not Alex. My name is actually Dave :) PB= PickledBushman. Thats why you will notice that when I post anything on behalf of Alex... I put there... "on behalf of Alex". I tend to deal with the lies from Creationists and Alex deals with the corrupt Shofar leadership.

12/14/07 @ 08:29

Comment from: ghosty [Visitor]

I think it's about time carte blanche airs this growing cult situation.. Why don't you boys use your contacts and get the story going!!!
SA needs to know!~

04/27/08 @ 18:32

Comment from: Leon [Visitor]

Interesting comments on this blog i just to give my 5 cents. I believe there are different churches that suites different people better according to personality and what they believe. So Why make such a big fuss about a church that does not suit you? Find a church where you fit in. I am a member of Shofar (PTA) and really found my place in this church. They dont know anything about my finances and they dont care. I come from a NG back ground where they talk about giving your tenth same as Shofar. Its your choice no one at Shofar has ever pushed this on me. I have been to other churches (that I wont name because its not about mud slinging for me) where it was all about the pastor and not about God. This is a bigger problem for me. This is not the case at Shofar, where I believe that if we have a disator with a pastor like mentioned above the church will go on because its about praising the Lord and not the person that leads the church.
About the rich and poor thing, Ihave never seen any evidence off this ,thats it for me.

10/13/08 @ 13:32

Comment from: Sven Swart [Visitor]

So clearly your case is against Shofar and if these allegations are true, then don't let them distort your view of Christ. I also have a problem with greed and immorality (whether it's homosexual or heterosexual) in the church and I hate the "prosperity gospel" that is perpetuated by guys like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar (I can't believe that's his last name!). True Christianity is based on faith in Christ and what He has done for us (living the life we should have lived, dying the death we should have died and being physically resurrected by the Heavenly Father). Whether or not Shofar is a cult remains to be seen, but always when there's money involved, we should be on the lookout, just do a wikipedia check on Oral Roberts and Jim Bakker and their scandalous efforts at fundraising and contrast that with the situation in 2 Corinthians 8:16-21. Have a local and lekker day pb! I'm not angry at anyone here, except those who delibirately distort the truth of God's Word. I just want to inform in a way that lines up with God's way as revealed in Scripture.

06/10/09 @ 11:56

Comment from: jj [Visitor]

I've been working with shofar for about 8 months and all that i can say is that it's no church, it's a business. It's impossible for a church to have that much money to spend on marketing, computers and the like and then still have enough money for huge salaries and fred may's multimillion rand house and fancy cars.

10/13/09 @ 08:37

Comment from: Wade Lundy [Visitor]

You got great honest points here. I done a search on the issue and learnt most peoples will agree with your blog.

02/28/10 @ 13:58

Comment from: Sven Swart [Visitor]

It's always worrisome when so called pastors flaunt their wealth, while others are hardly getting by. I'm thinking of Ray Macauly when he showed off his trophy wife, their big house and fancy cars in Huisgenoot a few years back. That is what we call vanity. I'm not saying we should all be paupers, but come on, if you are a pastor, you should be even more humble about who you are and where you come from. Christ didn't die on the cross to make us rich, He died on the cross to make us holy, like He is. All this prosperity doctrine stuff is making me sick.

03/02/10 @ 14:13

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